A culture that judges self-confidence makes it tough for women… and for everybody.
Hey, I’m obviously not a woman… But I do have a feminine side (sometimes). They say it is my better side.
This issue peeves me off, so I had to get it off my chest and write about it.
I have a friend who works in corporate finance. It’s a bit of a boys’ club, but she’s done well for herself. She’s a formidable deal-maker and she knows her stuff.
We were talking about pay gaps and why there still weren’t many female CEOs and that sort of thing. In her view, the corporate culture is still a bit ‘blokey’, but by the time we talking about promotions, it’s way too late.
It’s a cultural thing and it runs pretty deep.
“Let me give you an example,” she says. “Ask a man and a woman if they are a ‘good cook’. They both give you a firm ‘yes’. What does that tell you?”
“In the case of the man, it means he can boil and egg and knows how the toaster works. In the case of the woman, it probably means she’s one of the top 5 chefs in Australia.”
“Men are ok with projecting confidence. It’s celebrated.”
“Women aren’t good at selling themselves, and that’s holding them back. I’ve been on interview panels where a woman totally owns the job on paper. All we need to hear from her is a firm ‘yes’ she can do it. We’ve got a problem and we need confidence in the solution – we need confidence in her.”
“But we get all these qualifications – all these qualified yes’s. ‘If I have the right team, if it’s my particular area of expertise, then yes, I can probably do it.”
“And then we get some bloke with half the qualifications come in and say, ‘I totally own this job. I’m going to deliver results that will make your head spin. There’s no conceivable way I can fail.’”
“And I’ve seen what it does to interview panels. They like the woman on paper, but that guy selling guaranteed solutions speaks directly to the problem at hand. There’s still doubts about whether she can deliver, whereas they totally buy his sales pitch on himself.”
“Confidence is contagious.”
“And so 9 times out of 10, confidence guy gets the job. And in my line of work, confidence goes a long way. It can be pretty cut-throat.”
“So I don’t think corporate culture is overtly sexist. No one’s saying, I prefer candidate X because he has a penis.”
“To me it comes back to the way we bring our kids up.”
“Boys get Jack and the bean-stalk – a thief and giant killer who turns outrageous self-confidence into personal riches. Girls get Cinderella or the Princess and the Pea – delicate flowers who know when to shut up.”
“Boys are taught self-confidence. Girls are taught there’s nothing worse than vanity and thinking highly of yourself.”
“This mindset is a glass ceiling and it’s just as limiting as any boys club mentality.”
What do you think? Interesting stuff, right? I’ve never been a woman, so I don’t have much to say about sexism in the workplace.
But I do know that a self-depreciating mindset can be a liability.
And the difference between men and women that my friend describes could easily apply to the difference between American and Australian culture, say.
Americans are self-confident by culture. They don’t have a word for ‘tall-poppy’ syndrome.
Australians celebrate success, but not if it comes with being up your self, or even if it comes with a perception that you’re trying too hard.
I kinda feel sorry for our sports stars. Like our tennis players or cricketers. Professional support demands an iron-clad self confidence, and a ruthless competitive spirit.
Without these, you’ll never rise through the ranks to the top of your sport, and you’ll never succeed at an international level.
But we don’t like these thing in Australia. And if we see them come out in our sports stars, then we’re quick to judge them.
Humility and sportsmanship, that’s what made this country great.
And those are great values, but we can’t also demand a perfect win/loss record from them at the same time. Not in the modern age.
The Australian ideal seems to be to have a rock-solid inner confidence, while projecting a humble, self-depreciating face to the world.
This sounds nice, right? But it’s an incredibly difficult position to hold.
Because the inner and outer worlds are connected. One is a reflection of the other.
To be confident in the world, we need to have confidence in ourselves. If we move confidently in the world, our confidence in ourselves builds. Causation runs both ways, but it definitely runs.
If we talk ourselves down, under-sell ourselves, then that will start to drain our self-confidence. As we lose self-confidence, our performance in the world deteriorates.
So I’m just not sure that acrobatic feat is possible.
I just don’t think we can not be projecting confidence, while feeling innerly confident at the same time.
But this is what we ask our sports stars, and our women.
And if it’s one thing I’m sure of, it’s that self-confidence is one of the keys to success.
And so long as we’re demanding and morally enforcing a self-depreciating humility, we are making the road to success incredibly difficult.
Striving for success in Australia we need to be switched on to this. It’s a mill-stone around the neck.
And part of the challenge is learning how to accept a bit of social judgment in exchange for true self-confidence.
Do you care about what other people think? Or do you care about your own success?
Trust me on this. I’m awesome.
Lorraine says
Yes it’s a global phenomenon that men earn, on average, 17% more than women.
As most men have been beneficiaries to women’s unpaid labour during their lives, I think it’s time we started to look at taxing by gender, men should be required to pay 17% more tax than women to supplement the huge super gaps we are now seeing. It’s only fair.
John from Perth says
Lorraine, with our progressive tax system men on average would already be paying more than 17% more tax than women. Women at some time in their lives have been beneficiaries to men’s financial support so in return they should do unpaid labour. It’s only fair.
Steve says
Hi, yes some women aren’t treated with respect, and I agree that all, if deserving of respect, should be. I just don’t like the tone of feminism when it equates not to gender equality, but gender discrimination against men. This whole UN mandated push for the brain washing of the masses, read Agenda 2030 Global Goals, in this regard is counter intuitive. Women choose men who lead, that’s nature and psychology, if you place women above men, and label men as sexist, a boys club, or anti feminist for being who we are supposed to be, the leaders, then you will have more psychologically twisted men than there already are trying to please women when they are being demonized for what is natural, lead, and more unsatisfied women who want to lead at home, dominating their partners while not getting what they really need, Love from their male partner because a man can’t respect a woman who takes his role as leader, and a woman will never respect a man who allows her to lead him. Both are then unsatisfied, unhappy and miserable. Don’t demonize men for their natural role as leaders. Respect women, learn to love them for who they are, capable and deserving of vast amounts of responsibility, not all though, this is merit based. Not all women are equal just as not all men are equal. Don’t tar everyone with the same brush. The vast majority should stop demonizing men. Though some men who treat women badly should be demonized, some women equally treat men as badly, and they should all learn respect for each other in their roles.
ron says
hi jon, my turn. you probably know who won the brownlow medal…this guy is the embodiment of what you say about sports stars. nat fyfe is as humble a man as one can be in his situation. he comes from a small wheatbelt town: lake grace. lake grace is not the place for a summer holiday trust me!. this scrawny young kid filled out to be the most popular winner ever. even the previous years winner matt pridis was on record as saying ” i hope fyfy wins it this year”. for two years running the players running in the afl have voted him the most valuable player in the game..’by a mile’ so to speak. now at 194cms and 95 kgs he is no shrinking violet. his speech upon winning the brownlow was unforgetable…even after his leg operation on a fractured fibula..he continued to play in the prelim final unaware of the seriousness of his injury, a couple of days ago he flew down to lake grace in a helicopter to his folks and friends; hundreds of them and he signed little kids autograph books. nice.. a good bloke in true aussie tradition. much like, but not as flambouyant as dennis ..(lillee):-) he comes from a small town in wa too. good stuff..thank you jon for bringing it up..see ya! oh sorry..women…they are nice. i like them.
Dee says
hi jon..another interesting topic. Thank you. I’m not so sure it is a case of ‘in order to be successful, you need to be this’ but ‘the Australian world view is to look unfavourably on that kind on mindset’. I do see them as two opposites, but rather than two opposites at each end of the same piece of string, I actually see them, both still as opposites, but rather completely individual & independent of each other. An either or, as opposed to one end or the other of a single sliding scale.
I think the ‘tall poppy’ attitude is more towards those people who are self assured and confident in their own abilities and who really do believe that they are all that. That ‘THEY’ are all that, in particular. And they may well be. Which only seems to make it even worse.
I believe that humility and self confidence co-exist when a person, who also is self assured and confident in their own abilities, is also appreciative and respectful of the fact that it isn’t all about them. There are very few successes that can be achieved solely by any one individual on their own without the need of assistance, support or resources from others in order to achieve ‘THEIR’ success.
I think it’s something women are more conscious of than men.
Mum does the dishes says
How many families back the wife no holds barred with re mortgaging the house changing the family schedule etc when she wants to start a business on her own terms?
The most common family dynamic is still very much about what dad wants to do, mum washes the dishes and sets life up to revolve around dad’s interests, business expertise etc.
Steve says
You could relate this to the male trait of risk taking and driving, males are risk takers, you could argue that women are better drivers than men, and statistically have fewer crashes and therefore, road safety wise, are safer drivers. But, why don’t you see women drivers dominating formula 1 or nascar, because it’s female nature not to be risk takers. Men are risk takers and that’s why they excel at starting businesses. Couple that the role of provider is what gives men value and worth, and that nurturing is a feminine trait, it is perfectly natural to see why the way things are. We are hard wired psychologically to behave the way we do, and when well meaning individuals forget this and try things the other way around it breeds discontent and unhappiness, hence this would account for some of the rise in divorce rates. Though some men, or I should say infantiles need to learn to treat women properly, appreciate a woman’s qualities when she is deserving instead of being domineering brats, and be a loyal companion, same goes for some women.
Jason Awesome says
Hmm,well I’m a stay at home dad because my partner’s career make more than mine. I am the first to admit it was a hard transition from being a blokey carpenter to a house dad, I definitely have a bit of a struggle not being the bread winner, but my partner’s kicking arse and my pride for her overrides the loss of the Alfa…. But I’m still the boss….apparently. As far as the nurture side, that was learned, not so natural, like women. Lucky I’ve got two boys, it’s easier for me to relate
And I get to watch them grow up, but unlike the annoying bloke on the building site, you can’t just flog him when he deserves it, so I’ve learned patients also. So my life revolves a lot around everyone else’s needs first. And I’m a better cook anyway! And I have a dishwasher…
Roseanne says
Your Corporate Finance Friend replicates my own experience. Whilst successfully running a $1bn public business, I was still not one of the boys because I always said it as It was instead of saying what they wanted they wanted to hear.
Carrie Wright says
I hear you and agree – honesty isn’t well received – the hard cold truth is a hard pill to swallow for some and having to sugar coat ones communications is ridiculous, the big boys should be grown up enough to face facts
John from Perth says
Why is it that the number of women who are CEO’s is the measure of gender equality? Surely a far better measure of success would be comparative performance at a particular job.
I have a sister who has done well at her career as an accountant. She is harder working and more conscientious than men who have been her boss while they get the big bonuses and promotions for work performance while and misses out. She blames that on the boys club and there is certainly some truth in that.
We’ve both been brought up to believe hard work will get rewarded but I’ve also found that is not necessarily the case as something more is needed to translate work performance to success. From what I’ve seen people that get up the ladder usually have a mentor that takes them under the wing, earmarks them as up and coming and gives them challenges that put them in front of senior decision makers doing presentations etc. and that gives them the opportunity for promotion. I think men bosses may be shy about doing that with women as they may be perceived as having an ulterior motive. Also, women have a biological clock that means their career will be interrupted if they want kids so that is a risk for the investment required to groom a woman to a more senior position.
I think feminism and equal rights demands are putting pressure on women to “have it all” and to think they don’t need to depend on a husband for support. I think we need to recognise it is ok for women to get an education, marry and work for a number of years, have kids and stay at home to properly look after them and that becoming CEO is not worth the sacrifices for the whole family. I think things like the PPLS where double dipping working mothers are rewarded with child care subsidies to go back to work while stay at home mums miss out is a really bad thing.
I think the value of having stay at home mums and traditional families needs to be better recognised and the focus of women’s success changed from the number of women CEOs
Carrie Wright says
Good points made John
The devaluing of homemaking and child rearing hasn’t done women any favours and the worst thing is that women are hard on women who don’t have a career path or aren’t in the paid workforce. I think we are seeing the result of working mothers in neglected children who are now growing up and causing havoc. Whether the father stays home or the mum it really doesn’t matter or if both take turns but children need a loving home and family life that isn’t being squeezed in.
the workforce isn’t all its cracked up to be and being CEO of a company is usually too demanding for younger women who are juggling too many things.
Lets face it women are better at most things just not laying on the BS like the men.
The culture needs to change before women get a look in – work based childcare – actual work life balance practices and results based promotions not who can blow the loudest trumpet
Chris Vincent-Smith says
Hi Jon and readers, well I am now 65 and still working part time. I have worked with many women and also for them. Some of the most ambitious and most successful of my colleges have been women. I have to say, that 2 of the 3 women I have worked for have been tough and uncompromising ! To me, there is no one more powerful than a woman who really knows how to handle a man.
Several years ago I attended a directors meeting held in a very small boardroom huddled around a small boardroom table on what seemed to be smaller than average chairs. A female executive arrives just as the door was about to be closed reeking of cigarette smoke. Two of us hurriedly squeeze another chair between us. As Madame takes her position between us, she turns to me exclaiming “can’t you move up a bit !”. Before I can offer a polite answer the lady on the other side of me states “we are already bumper to bumper here !” By this time we have the attention of all present as I blurt out “at least your equipment is of the folding variety, mine isn’t ! After some continued hearty laughter (some didn’t get it straightaway), Chair got the meeting underway.
Although everybody seemed to be accepting my assertion/assumption in good humour, a memo attached to the minutes read “sexist comments will not be tolerated at “this organisation “. Please always consider the feeling of your college.
Ha ha says
They say a womans work is never done….maybe thats why they get paid less…
Carrie Wright says
Probably if I had servants or cheap home help I could have risen up the corporate ladder but I had to put my children first and the result being that I am now potentially one of the working poor. The classic “my husband went off with the younger blond number” has happened in my life and I am now at 62 years of age having to reinvent myself and find a new source of financial security not tied to a man.
The women’s movement is still in its infancy and until men and women both take another look at the lifestyle and choices we have the status quo will persist. The pressure on people to achieve the dizzy heights is stupid.
Strive for a productive sane existence and let those in the fast lane whizz by, they’ll be down the road aways with a flat tyre or out of petrol fuming at the mouth. The unrelentless striving for all things shiny and new doesn’t do much for the morale if you have no time to enjoy them.
jenni radke says
Read this and comments last weekend …. my thoughts as a now retired working mother of 3 …. success is not being a CEO, a famous movie star, or billionaire. Each to their own path, but isn’t success really being happy and content? We are now getting studies based on that … happiest countries and so on. Many people cannot achieve great monetary ‘success’ in the field of work they love doing (art, music, gardening, writing poetry etc) because our society does not value them enough. ‘Giftedness’ is what the society values. They have often content with little, while there are many miserable CEO’s out there!
Secondly, Steve’s comments about leadership were simplistic. He stated that men are naturally leaders and that if a woman doesn’t let her husband lead she’ll be ‘unsatisfied’!! If there are men who still think this then we really need feminism. We just want them to be equals for goodness sake. In any relationship there has to be give and take and compromise, or it will fall apart. If one always has to ‘lead’ then one will always be resentful.
Leadership … I have often thought too many men are followers especially in conflict and war! There are 2 extremes of leadership … the tough, ‘dog eat dog’, aggressive, violent type and the nurturing, cooperative, consultative, team building type. Men and women can be either ( Gandhi and Thatcher) but most are somewhere in between. Too many men think the former is the only way to be a leader. This is incorrect and destructive. Our society needs to value the latter type of leadership more … after all which type of boss would you at work? Which creates a more progressive , fair and content society?