The good characters in Game of Thrones are unbelievable. To me they seem like naïve idiots. I can’t believe anyone can be moral in an immoral world.
You know what I find hardest to believe about Game of Thrones?
Dragons. Seriously. Flying Lizards? Breathing fire? Where do they come up with this stuff?
You know what I find the second hardest thing to believe about Game of Thrones?
Good characters.
It really surprises me that there are any good and virtuous characters at all.
I mean the Game of Thrones world is vicious. People are getting hacked to pieces everywhere you look. Murderers and thieves are at every turn. Even bloodlines don’t protect you from treachery and betrayal.
And barely anyone can keep it in their pants.
(Actually, no, that’s the second hardest thing to believe about game of thrones. How these piss-poor peasants living in a perpetual winter have such perfectly tanned cross-fit bottoms.)
But despite how selfish and cruel the world is, there are still these intensely good and noble characters in the midst. Folks who would, ‘gladly give my life for you, my queen.’
Really? If that was your reality, why would you believe in anything? Why would you subscribe to virtues like honour and chastity and truthfulness and only light-meals after six?
Maybe if you were some naive peasant living in the wilderness. But if you were in the thick of it – if you were a witness to all the back-stabbing politics of the city, why would you bother trying to live up to such lofty ideals?
Partly, it’s hard to stay committed to virtue in a world of sin. If everyone else is just looking after their own backs and feathering their own nests, your morality and principles start to become expensive. It holds you back in the world.
You’re trying to stay true to modesty, generosity and integrity, but then that nasty little turd-burger from accounts becomes your boss, because he’s been sucking up to the CEO at the jousting tournaments.
You’re going to start questioning whether it’s worth it.
And in a really nasty world like the Game of Thrones kingdoms, morality could get you killed. You might believe in justice and honour and due-process, but there’s a good chance you’ll be undone by someone who doesn’t.
Someone will come along and take advantage of your charity and trusting nature and bury an axe in your head and run off with your daughters.
To be a moral person in an immoral world puts you at a distinct disadvantage. In a ruthlessly immoral world you’ll probably end up dead.
And so every time one of these intensely moral and virtuous characters appear, it just stretches my belief. They seem as improbable as dragons.
Why would you take on all the disadvantage and suffering that your morality brings? Why would you risk your life for an ideal? What is it that you’re committed to? That’s what I find myself thinking about.
Why is Brienne of Tarth running around like some cross between a Saint and a Samurai, when literally no body else is?
I think it’s the interesting thing about morality, or any system of trying to get along better with each other. It’s a collective effort.
In Australia, we’re pretty good at standing in queues. We respect the principal of a queue. We know that a queue means we can bring a bit of order to the unpleasant job of collectively waiting for something. We know it’s better than the alternative.
But in some countries I’ve been to, the concept of a queue has never really taken off. Every time you’re waiting for something, you’ve got to jostle to keep your position and get served in time.
Pain in the arse.
But you can’t just unilaterally start a queue. You can’t just go it alone and bring a bit of order to things. You’ll never get served.
The queue needs to be collectively decided on, or somehow imposed – like a big sign saying ‘Please Queue Here.’
Same story with morality. It’s got to be some sort of a collective effort.
And you need some sort of mechanism to stop rewards accruing to the cheaters.
This is one of the problems with capitalism.
(which as they say, is the worst possible system, except for all the others we’ve tried.)
The profit motive very easily sparks races to the bottom. If one of your competitors starts getting their shoes made by sweat-shop slaves in Asia, you don’t have much choice but to follow suit. If you’re not competitive, you die.
It’s the problem with a competitive system. But competition is the engine of innovation and progress in a capitalist system, so it’s hard to untangle.
As I said, worst possible system.
And right now, I can’t help but feel we’re going backwards.
However you feel about religions, they used to do a decent job of coordinating a collective morality.
But their hold on society is waning, and even within many religions, a purely rules-based approach seems outdated.
There was no 11th commandment: ‘Thou shalt not redirect education funding to your dodgy cousins.’
But what or who’s filling the void? There’s a role here for politicians – for our leaders – but Canberra seems to be the only place more morally bankrupt than Westeros.
So what will hold and support our collective morality? And if nothing is holding it and promoting it, how long will it last?
The moral road is not the easy one. And humans like easy.
Humanity is always dancing on a knife’s edge.
Personally, I think virtue is its own reward. It feels good to be generous, and loving and honest and to have integrity. And to be those things, in a world where everyone is also aspiring to those things – I think that’s as much as humans can ever hope for.
And so I think this will be the next evolution in human morality. Being good for the pleasure of it. But it needs a critical mass of people following the same ideal.
I can’t see yet what will hold the collective human will to this difficult goal. But I’m hopeful that something will.
But then I am a bit of a dreamer.
Do people need some sort of coordinating force to be good?
Can we expect people to be moral in an immoral world?
Rudolf says
Hi Jon….. and what happens if the critical mass in a large collective of humans is hell bent on evil…….
…..we get ISIS….and it’s many many background/underground financial backers & supporters.
and they will win unless we also become violent…..There is really no way we can be virtuous and win.
Regards
Rudolf
Davo says
If we become violent and adopt ISIS practices then we are no better than ISIS.
Somehow we have to retain our morality and standards. We are not a Christian democracy, but our principals and moral standards are Christian.
We need a very clear message that ISIS does not benefit the masses and like communism it will repress development and growth. So that less countries adopt that model (and yes I am thinking that Islam is a political model, and I have noted that countries like Malaysia that adopt the model do not have the quality of life of Singapore, where the capitalist model is adopted). Still cannot believe that Egypt planned to pull the Pyramids down to appease Islam.
We also need to enforce our borders, so that the fifth column is not established here, like happened with Communism (and the Wall). Make the choice clear, so that less people escape Islam to the West only to then incest on Sharia Law (exactly what they ran away from).
John Harris says
A very wise article. I have not watched The Game of Thrones, but I have observed human nature, mostly in Australia and only from other countries whilst holidaying throughout my 70 years of life.
Being born during World War 2, I grew up through what was a tough time for my parents who experienced rationing and Government controls that were thought to be for the betterment of the country. You mention Religion as a coordinating force, which it was during the post war period, however the churches have lost any controlling influence it once had. The Government has lost control as well. The things that held the people together during those times was the suffering and death experienced through war and poverty. We do not see that in this era. When we go to war now we just stand back and watch it on tv, thinking that war is good for the economy.
When it comes time to vote for a new Government, we look at which party will give us the most immediate benefits, not what is best for our country in the long term. There is no long term available as the politicians are not able to plan ahead since they will be dismissed by the greedy people before it is achieved.
War and Fear to me seem to be the only coordinating force that can bring out the best in a community.
We can encourage the masses to join community service groups to help the needy both nationally and internationally, but most people are too busy to give the time and the effort.
The polio plus campaign gives me some hope that the human race can stay on track. This campaign has all but wiped out polio throughout the world and it only exists in 3 countries at this moment. Millions of people have remained committed to the eradication of polio and with the exceptional underwriting by Bill Gates it will happen. If this can be done other wrongs can be corrected, maybe?
Felice says
Your assessment of the present erosion of morality and decency is quite right.
Once the majority of the masses lose sight of the boundaries for morality and behaviour, their influence becomes ineffective and chaos will increase.
It remains our personal responsibility to adhere to what we know and understand to be right , even in the face of adversity. This is what we call “raising a standard”. Whether most people will admit it or not, we all need something that is bigger than ourselves to believe in.
The vacuum created by the departure from our traditional Christian values has opened our society up to entertaining all sorts of ideals to replace what has been lost, a common sense of purpose and an understanding of the value of life and all of its endeavours.
I get the feeling that most of us are beginning to sense an understanding of the value of what has been lost but in our stubbornness to admit our error have hardened our hearts to accepting the one answer which would give us the chance to restore the balance.
Instead we are seeing an increasing number of our young people being drawn into believing in he redemptive power of an artificial system like ISIS or even (dare I say it on an investment blog!) money.
Most are looking for hope. Hope that they can dream and a future that will give them an opportunity to use and be appreciated for their gifts and talents.
Who is game to raise the standard…well I guess my reply to this blog proves that there are still a few of us left.
Helen says
another wise & concise article thank you Jon! i read this years ago and have certainly seen it to be true… all humans need:- 1. something to live for 2. someone to love 3. something to look forward to. This is what gives us purpose, fulfilment and hope. And when any of these elements are absent from a life, seems to be when trouble arises (something to fill the void – which inevitably is a short term, unhealthy or unproductive “fix”). I have not seen Game of Thrones. But tend to agree unless the collective human have some kind of behaviour boundary, chaos ensues. I am with you Jon – a dreamer, an optimist, living in hope that most people aspire to being good. Happy Friday.
jota6689 says
A moral compass – respect for others generally – is the worst possible outcome if you want human canon fodder for the next war. Make no mistake the hideous virtual war games are permitted and promoted by governments for the purpose of desensitising the next generation of soldiers who do the unspeakable and unmentionable in our name.
Graeme says
Interesting timing Jon… I was think along the same lines just this week. It is not just Canberra that is morally bankrupt… here in SA we have a Govt that is spending over $4m telling lies to pensioners and a Federal Govt spending a similar amount to tell those same pensioners that the ads are lies. Surely there as a better way. Then we have the “I’m not responsible principle”. No one nowadays take responsibility for what they do and you don’t have to look far to see why. The Motor Accident Commission is running an ad campaign that makes the guy driving along at less than the speed limit responsible for an accident where another driver pulls out in front of him… “but I’ve got my boy in the car” seems to be his excuse for his stupidity. But what annoys me is the point of the ad is “slow down”. IT used to be look right then left then right again and only if it is clear do you proceed. Well that’s my Friday rant… have a good weekend and slow down.
Antichrist says
Good timing..Labour day and all. The celebration of the fact people had to fight to get fairer and more reasonable working conditions. A hard fight. Capitalists didnt like forgoing their profits. The nature of capitalism is sorely and surely corrupt, and does not engender equity, fairness, nor morality. Nor does religion. In any of its guises. Christianity and its loony rightwing disciples are just as off the track, bigoted, ignorant arrogant asses as these ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Quada mob of tossers that presently pervade the islamic world. Religion does not, and never has, represented a moral code.Ok, some Blokes thought they should write down a body of law around not killing, stealing or shagging the neighbours wife…but they didnt “create” these “natural” laws….did they?..I dont think so.
Morality is a slippery and contextually interesting concept Jon. Lets be real..its a lot easier for you to be “moralising” now your net worth is in the mills. But, if i am correct, it wasnt soo long ago Jon that you were hauled across a few australian commissions for alleged immoral business practices. Whether right or wrong..(who am i to judge), your behaviors were, at that time seen to be of a questionable nature and worthy of reining in.
Even now, a lot of your “get wealthy” strategies rely upon using your education, access to knowledge and skills to manipulate situations and turning a profit, extracting wealth that was sitting in others hands whom are “less fortunate” to have had that access to such training and who have less of that profit “instinct’ that capitalism rewards.
Some would of course, argue that to have millions of dollars itself is “immoral”
My point is, it seems to me that morality is a concept that one must feel one is able to afford….or conversely…is something that many people think they can ill afford…some more examples:
I live in a small gypsy village in Bulgaria for 6 months every year. Here the people are and have been hugely discriminated against by the state in various manifestations,and historically strong perhaps reactive cultural values have also driven these people into the ground. Education is not valued for example, (the state make it difficult to access, and illiterate and uneducated parents struggle to afford it, and see the value in it.) . Unemployment “benefits” are not allocated individually, but numerically to the region..(so our village are “allowed” about 20 people to receive benefits from the state 65 lev a month..about 50 aussi dollars)..if they work 20 hrs a week cleaning the streets: 80 hrs a month). We have at least 100 unemployed people in the village, (out of 250 peeps) being rural, ill educated, with no transport and with a country in crisis.. Therefore 80 receive nothing every month. These 20 “slots” are rotated. Most people cannot afford basic things such as electricity or water to their houses. The benefit buys 2 loaves of bread a day..not really adequate to feed a family.
Resulting from this dire situation a lot of questionable moral precepts are put up for barter. The younger more able bodied men, with a skerrick of education escape to the west of europe and become cheap labour for capitalists to exploit there. I have seen a few return badly injured over the years with no health insurance, no sickness benefits and crippled due to being exploited , and interestingly again on labour day, no unions to represent them. Thier days are numbered with the bad, and inequitable healthcare system here they cannot afford. They will die. In fact,Older, ill and injured people die here very easily.
Young women get pregnant and are married off at 13 or so. Many of the women end up working as prostitutes. Sadly, a few men resort to thieving. Some become christians because the christians here give out food parcels….he he..but only to christians..fancy that!
Jon..to do good for the pleasure of it..to be honest, be generous, loving and have integrity, are all sadly, bourgeois concepts. We all as humans require a number of preconditions to even contemplate these…security, ..maslows hierarchy to be under control, a functioning and equitable state, access to education, clean water, food….
The sad part is, there are sooo many in the world that this is not the reality. Until such issues are addressed, immorality, crazy christians and muslim zealots will continue to maintain purchase and distort the worlds potential.
Tim says
Jon, you make it sound like you are searching for something!
I want to address, “Being good for the joy of it” as I don’t believe we do the right thing unless coerced. An example, The only time the Victorian police force have gone on strike was in 1928. Within two hours, all of Melbourne CBD was looted. So was it the ‘good’ guys passing or the criminals came to town to loot. I think we are bent against being good and an opportunity arose.
Paul M says
I remember the feeling of joy and hope for the future of
humanity I had back in 1989 when the Berlin Wall fell, and how (mostly)
bloodless revolutions brought in new freedoms and dreams of a better life for
so many.
But how that ideal has been trampled on since then.
We have the modern day Tsar Putin, possibly the biggest thief of all time,
threatening European and world peace, as well as other less powerful but
perhaps even more megalomaniacal warlords wrecking people’s lives all over the
place. At the same time, the so-called good guys like the US have 50 years of
badly considered, planned, and executed diplomatic and military disasters
behind them in the Middle East and elsewhere, such that their judgement (and
impartiality) should always be under question. Every western country seems to be
lurching to the right. Our own government and others in the west are all busy proving
Al Qaeda won on 9/11 by systematically turning the surveillance states of the
fictional novel “1984” into reality so that they can spy on their own
citizens at all times and take away their basic rights, all in the name of
freedom. Simultaneously, they are mostly doing their level best to alienate
religious and ethnic minorities who aren’t yet radicalised or discriminated
against to the point of rebellion. (Anyone seen those riots by black citizens in the US? – Just
why do you think they’re happening?) Then we have completely insane religious
fanatics trying to bring in or go to their version of paradise
wherever they can (and I’m not just talking about IS – many of the nutcase Tea
Party adherents could fit into this category too). On top of that, corporations
rule governments and determine their policies, meaning that the rich are
getting obscenely rich at the expense of the poor and middle classes. Wealth is
defying gravity – deluging upwards, rather than trickling down, and the world
seems to be playing Robin Hood In Reverse. Individuals too seem to be getting
more insular and self-centred, undoubtedly an effect of our now dominant
communication technologies. Climate change threatens our future and we are
playing the Three Monkeys and singing la-la-la, as the fossil fuel corporations
pull disinformation campaigns that almost put the tobacco industry’s long
defence of smoking to shame for lack of inspiration and chutzpah. And new and innovative
industries important for the future are being sabotaged, jobs are being lost,
so that coal and oil companies can maintain their profits until it all simply
runs out one day. But they’ll have made their money, and if we have no power
sources they won’t care, because they will be dead by then. But they’ll have
found a way to take it with them by then.
And critically, just enough people are believing the avalanche of propaganda
being thrown at us. “Well, our government wouldn’t lie to us! And even if
they are, you can’t trust….. (insert party or individual here)!” But I
suppose if people are stupid enough to believe things like the world being
7,000 years old and that people were once running around with pet dinosaurs…. Despite
incontrovertible evidence of geology, biology and every other form of science, some
people will believe anything. You don’t have to be a born-again Christian or a
Daesh fighter to have the same thought processes.
There are still many good people out there, trying to help others and build a
better society. But they are not winning. Because there are just too many
wilfully stupid and stubborn people out there now, burying their heads in the
sand.
I have come to the conclusion that humanity will not survive past the end of
this century, at least not in any civilised form we now recognise. The stupid and
selfish have dominated the Earth at many other times in our history. But never
have they had the technological capacity to do such harm on such scale – to the
point of bringing on an extinction event. And I think it’s becoming inevitable
that some nut will finally do it, even if it’s just by the default of doing
nothing when they should have done something.
So, who knows? I’ve never watched “Game of
Thrones”, but perhaps it’s a prophetic vision of what happens after ….
Kevin Wharton says
Aristotle argues virtue and ethics as the path to happiness, a clear conscience .. Maybe depression the modern epidemic is related to the success ladder and methods used by the individual ..
James Cook experienced observer commented on the indigenous Australians .. ”to some these people appear the most wretched on earth, in reality they are happier than we Europeans”..
My thoughts, giving priority to the wellbeing the mob/group over the individual is in itself virtuous and ethical, leading to the happiness Cook thought important enough to record in his journal ..
al says
(But, But Jon – you know of your … “despite how selfish and cruel the world is, there are still these intensely good and noble characters in the midst. Folks who would, ‘gladly give my life for you, my queen.” …(is just our modern worlds relatively global peaceful times just re- repeating the endless commercial propagation of ‘goodies and baddies’ stories – the devisive point between ‘commercially selling the old wars mythos and the current worlds wars’ is plain – who would be so brazen to re-craft a new $ game howsoever – mass produced (board style or whatever electronic version) that stylised or stamped out our current worlds immediately terrorising circumstances …How long would that version of “goodies and baddies” take to be ripped away from the global market and those creators thrown in the sin bin from a global populace kick back ?… NOT long – I bet…. There is a point here beyond the obvious (being those game makers are unlikely to arise) we ARE all being kept sub or unconsciously “linked” to money’s aka violent – mindless warfare….. Which makes your next comments seem lacking for an understanding of the big picture.
… “To be a moral person in an immoral world puts you at a distinct disadvantage. In a ruthlessly immoral world you’ll probably end up dead.”
(Globally we have all just witnessed a “lawful execution” of 8 men 2 from this country who were all relevantly – very foolish despite the law being very clear and known to them – the pivotal turning point was again ‘political power based’ a very weak leader. YOUR comment …”I think it’s the interesting thing about morality, or any system of trying to get along better with each other. It’s a collective effort”-
It is obvious you are on right path BUT it does Not apply if – ‘weak Power’ exists. The exorbitant stupidity of religious and territorial wars needs no comment as each is trite to the point of utter exhaustion and everyone is sick to ashes to dust if more be said. We ARE a global community, it’s time to concretize that ‘pontification’ and sooner than later we will arrive at that destination including – ONE trading (world dollar) “full stop”.
At that time we could all share a once and only once necessary additional benefit which amounts to nothing less than a completely full and transparent “all cards on the table” complete and full all accounts tabled redistribution of all the accumulated nett financial wealth in the entire world – is it … Or – Is that NOT what happened when you were youngsters playing monopoly in your family?
It’s (actually the whole world reality now ) but or truly overcooked “past the time to start again”…
The EXPRESS simplicity of the above (forget crap ‘academic arguments’ if you don’t understand why I say that then you miss the whole point – but or despite I could explain how it could be done – if you cannot see it yourself – but – that also does NOT mean there will be NO ‘whingers’ that is pivotal to understand, because they will always exist(?) even without losing anything ‘they hold’
.. and you are accordingly (as and where it so applies) right and wrong as following:
——————————–
But you can’t just unilaterally start a queue. (that is not needed) You can’t just go it alone and bring a bit of order to things.(accepted)You’ll never get served.(wrong point and erred my friend)
The queue needs to be collectively decided on, (truly worldly correct) or somehow imposed – like a big sign saying ‘Please Queue Here.’(… no alternative initial cue to queue is required – at all)
Same story with morality. It’s got to be some sort of a collective effort..(ha ha! ‘the winners hand’)
And you need some sort of mechanism to stop rewards accruing to the cheaters. (the EASY bit !)
This is one of the problems with capitalism. () which as they say, is the worst possible system, except for all the others we’ve tried…. (PYRAMIDAL will never be any different try the ‘xxxx of xxxxx’.?…principle … Leo knew the way …youre a part of it – we all are… lol! its the true equality of ‘every individual’ so…it has been ‘commercially avoided’ at ‘all costs’ by – for power!)
The profit motive very easily sparks races to the bottom. If one of your competitors starts getting their shoes made by sweat-shop slaves in Asia, you don’t have much choice but to follow suit. If you’re not competitive, you die…(you have been thinking about some dog barking posts again!)
It’s the problem (one) with a competitive system.But competition is (a one) engine of innovation and (protracts and hides) progress in a capitalist system, so it’s hard to untangle. (“RUBBISH”)
As I said, worst possible system… (TRY near as to SLAVERY – STILL GOING ON under armed guards “indigenous colored peoples hidden away” still diamond panning in creeks right now” .. ?)
And right now, I can’t help but feel (and MANY more than you KNOW) we’re going backwards.
However you feel about religions, they used to do a decent job of coordinating a collective morality.(AND COLLECTING EVERY LAST PENNY _ HOW very ‘RELIGIOUS’ OF THEM ???)
But their hold on society is waning, (tell that to anyone in the current wars o/s right now) and even within many religions, a purely rules-based approach seems outdated.(we ‘all need boundaries’)
There was no 11th commandment: ‘Thou shalt not redirect education funding to your dodgy cousins.’..(HA HA ha ? more than ever, the past is always re-lived and some DO get caught now)
……
But what or who’s filling the void? There’s a role here for politicians – for our leaders (ha ha) but Canberra seems to be the only place more morally bankrupt than Westeros….(Hhmmm ?.. ?)
So what will hold and support our collective morality? And if nothing is holding (re-BUILDING?) it and promoting it, how long will it last? .. (good easy questions …need good easy answers) . . ….
The moral road is not the easy one. And humans like easy. … (but not sharing it that way …..)
Humanity is always dancing on a knife’s edge..(lay it flat – better still put it away due proper use.)
Personally, I think virtue is (about ensuring making) its own reward. It feels good to be generous, and loving and honest and to have integrity. And to be those things, in a world where everyone is also aspiring to those things – I think that’s as much as humans can ever hope for (“make it so”).
And so I think this will be the next evolution in human morality. Being good for the pleasure of it. But it needs a critical mass of people following the same ideal. (that means a world wide census)
I can’t see yet what will hold the collective human will to this difficult goal. But I’m hopeful that something will…. (“Woof ..woof … I already told you …” said that god dam dog ..)
But then I am a more than “bit of” a dreamer…(DO you remember get that DOG’s name now ..)
Do people need some sort of coordinating force to be good? (NOT IF USING one EQUALITY )
Can we expect people to be moral in an immoral world? (NOT via UPPER $ money LEVELS …..)
(A critical mass is all that it takes to change the world and that already exists as we all well and truly know or… ask any politician who will say “I am not sure” … I will ask my RICH MATES ?.)
Have a great week end Jon … you will have noticed Hockey and Abbot and the new foreign investment ‘clobbering of wrongful property purchase in OZ which just stuffs our own market !
JIM says
There are obviously many problems that humanity faces all over the world, in some places the problems seem insurmountable which may lead you to believe that we are heading for a major catastrophe, hopefully it will be a wake up call for the human race. In life here have always been good and virtuous characters like Brienne of Tarth and not so good and virtuous characters, how else would life work if there were no choices on how to be good or not so good. I haven’t watched Game of Thrones, so I will make some assumptions in the following comments.
Maybe Brienne was once part of the problem but now wants to be part of the solution, maybe he no longer enjoyed living life as a bad guy and got over his fear of dying so he could live a life of his choosing rather than living a life which he felt he had to live just to survive. Maybe Brienne got more pleasure living as a good guy for a short period than he did living as a bad guy most of his life.
Do people need some sort of coordinating force to be good?
Humans have tried to make other human behave in certain ways (moral and good) for centuries by making up rules (legislation), history has shown that this does not work, when this does not work, human try to make other humans behave in certain ways (moral and good) using more extreme measures, like fines, imprisonment, physical punishment and even death. Again history has shown that this does not work.
Morality cannot be legislated and enforced. Morality can only be born in the Human Soul and be carried in the Human Heart and be expressed thru the Human Mind, each and every one of us gets to choose how it will be with us.
Can we expect people to be moral in an immoral world?
Probably not, however, can we expect people to be moral in a moral world? Can you Imagine how it would be living in a world where everybody gave what another needed, who would be in need of anything
I AM A DREAMER.